Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (Moltres-Galar banned, see post #104)

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EviGaro

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:moltres-galar:

Hlelo hlelo, Council revisited Moltres-Galar following last week's vote and more information based on scl and general time to play with it. We agreed to revote on its presence in the tier and here are the results

ban: Beraldo, eifo, EviGaro, Feliburn, Floss, GoldCat, TheFranklin, yourwelcomethanku
no ban: cyanize

With a 8-1 result easily clearing the supermajority, Moltres-Galar is now banned from RU! Tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you.

Council also talked about other issues we had with the metagame, and two mons that were raised by a few people were Revavroom and Bisharp. Since getting High Horsepower, Revavroom gained a lot of value from not having to use Tera Blast as coverage, or ig Bulldoze / Assurance. It has a lot of item flexibility, tera options, and is generally difficult to revenge efficiently. Most hyper offences will use this mon as its arguably the most threatening cleaner, but it's not limited to this. Still, because this has been RU for the whole gen, we were very unsure about voting on it now.

Bisharp has been more of an underground threat, but a few people raised similar issues to what make Moltres difficult to handle, and it's not hard to see why. Bisharp's tera options are plentiful, and force very different defensive counterplay. Wisp Slither Wing? Tera fire is very good on it. Strong ground or fighting? Tera Flying or Tera Fairy. You need a bit more power? Tera Dark is extremely difficult to stop once set up. It has less issues with coverage than Moltres does, but can run into some issues if you go Sucker Punch as your main dark stab. Similarly, Sucker Punch is the main way it has of outpacing the metagame, as it lost Rock Polish for ZERO REASON. Anyway, Bisharp has a general lack of showcases at the highest level of RU play and so its a bit difficult to vote on it now, but its threat level remains extremely high when seen.
 
So, a couple of days the tier shifts happened, I noticed one of my favorite mons to use last gen dropped again, and this time there's not that big of a chance of it leaving the tier (if anything, it's gonna keep dropping down), so I decided to use it again!

:Magnezone:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 196 HP / 68 Def / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Discharge

Now with the option of terastalization, Body Press Magnezone is more menacing than ever :wo: I was gonna suggest a specs Magnet Pull set, but most of the steels in the tier don't really mind staying on magnezone a turn or 2, so setup felt like the correct choice, being able to use the likes of Klefki and Foretress as setup fodder and being a decent check to bronzong without psychic STAB. You can usually take 1 to 2 kills before going down, which is really nice for another breakers on your team. I recommend pairing it with mons like Diancie, Sylveon and Florges. The speed investment outspeeds base 90's uninvested (Brambleghast mainly) to get an iron defense up, though it could be made bulkier if needed.
 

Rarelyme

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Alright there has been some tiering talks here and there so I'll try to succinctly write my thoughts on the tier here.

From my experience, RU is dominated by 2 main team styles at the moment which are balance and hyper-offense. This is not an issue per say, however these teams tend to revolve around the same Pokemon over and over again. These Pokemon being extremely powerful in RU are almost mandatory to build a competitive team and therefore restrict the builder by overclassing all the other options. I'm talking here about Wo-Chien and Mimikyu.

:wo-chien: To me, what makes it too much for the tier is tera. Wo-Chien is of course an absurdly good Pokemon with tons of utility potential but the fact that its typing is pretty bad defensively makes it alright to deal with thanks to Pokemon like Kilowattrel, Slither Wing, or Decidueye-Hisui for instance. Once it turns Poison or Ghost type thought, it's another story completely. The aforementioned Pokemon are of course useless against it now. Our lack of good offensive Ground types surely makes it harder against tera Poison, and Psychic types are usually complexe to bring in because you don't want to take a Knock Off. Tera Ghost makes it the best anti-spin in the tier while only being weak to strong Dark and Ghost type attacks which are very very scarce in the tier atm. As a consequence Wo-Chien becomes a prime concern in the builder because optimally you need tools to beat it before AND after tera and even then it's still hard to do in practice.

As Wo-Chien enables absurdly efficient defensive core to prosper, I have seen hyper-offenses being used more and more in response and thrive on the ladder and in tournaments.

:Mimikyu: Mimikyu is a keystone for most HOs thanks to its great typing, Disguise and enormous breaking/sweeping potential. I challenge you to have a look at the RU pool and find me Pokemon able to take somewhat easily a Mimikyu at +2. You will probably be left with Forretress as the only viable one. The other Steel types can't deal with Drain Punch and the rest gets blown up by Play Rough/Shadow Claw. Its strong priority makes it reliable against other HO and faster opponents as well. This means that Mimikyu is to me one of the best (if not the best) at forcing defensive tera and even then, in most cases you will probably need to sacrifice one or two Pokemon + tera advantage to deal with it.

Of course, Mimikyu is not the only offensive threat that feels banworthy (s/o pawmot and revavroom) but it's the one I feel the strongest about atm. I think these two are the most unhealthy presences in the current meta and if they were to be banned the tier would make a step towards a more balanced metagame.
 
So, a couple of days the tier shifts happened, I noticed one of my favorite mons to use last gen dropped again, and this time there's not that big of a chance of it leaving the tier (if anything, it's gonna keep dropping down), so I decided to use it again!

:Magnezone:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 196 HP / 68 Def / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Discharge

Now with the option of terastalization, Body Press Magnezone is more menacing than ever :wo: I was gonna suggest a specs Magnet Pull set, but most of the steels in the tier don't really mind staying on magnezone a turn or 2, so setup felt like the correct choice, being able to use the likes of Klefki and Foretress as setup fodder and being a decent check to bronzong without psychic STAB. You can usually take 1 to 2 kills before going down, which is really nice for another breakers on your team. I recommend pairing it with mons like Diancie, Sylveon and Florges. The speed investment outspeeds base 90's uninvested (Brambleghast mainly) to get an iron defense up, though it could be made bulkier if needed.
You know, a similar yet different set used to be dominant in uu and decent in ou before the home update came and exposed zone for the washed up shockingly frail clanker he truly is and sent him to the darkest pits of uu where he was tortured by being forced to barely hang to a tier he had no niche in before watching as the mons once considered the biggest victims of power creep rose from irrelevance while he slowly and painfully dropped to publ, one more defensive, either investing defense or special defense, one that constantly slammed its “hands” together to form a barrier to drain its leftovers as much healing as possible, one that ran analytic so its body press could do more damage, at the cost of any opportunity to set up 3 whole iron defenses
 
Alright there has been some tiering talks here and there so I'll try to succinctly write my thoughts on the tier here.

From my experience, RU is dominated by 2 main team styles at the moment which are balance and hyper-offense. This is not an issue per say, however these teams tend to revolve around the same Pokemon over and over again. These Pokemon being extremely powerful in RU are almost mandatory to build a competitive team and therefore restrict the builder by overclassing all the other options. I'm talking here about Wo-Chien and Mimikyu.

:wo-chien: To me, what makes it too much for the tier is tera. Wo-Chien is of course an absurdly good Pokemon with tons of utility potential but the fact that its typing is pretty bad defensively makes it alright to deal with thanks to Pokemon like Kilowattrel, Slither Wing, or Decidueye-Hisui for instance. Once it turns Poison or Ghost type thought, it's another story completely. The aforementioned Pokemon are of course useless against it now. Our lack of good offensive Ground types surely makes it harder against tera Poison, and Psychic types are usually complexe to bring in because you don't want to take a Knock Off. Tera Ghost makes it the best anti-spin in the tier while only being weak to strong Dark and Ghost type attacks which are very very scarce in the tier atm. As a consequence Wo-Chien becomes a prime concern in the builder because optimally you need tools to beat it before AND after tera and even then it's still hard to do in practice.

As Wo-Chien enables absurdly efficient defensive core to prosper, I have seen hyper-offenses being used more and more in response and thrive on the ladder and in tournaments.

:Mimikyu: Mimikyu is a keystone for most HOs thanks to its great typing, Disguise and enormous breaking/sweeping potential. I challenge you to have a look at the RU pool and find me Pokemon able to take somewhat easily a Mimikyu at +2. You will probably be left with Forretress as the only viable one. The other Steel types can't deal with Drain Punch and the rest gets blown up by Play Rough/Shadow Claw. Its strong priority makes it reliable against other HO and faster opponents as well. This means that Mimikyu is to me one of the best (if not the best) at forcing defensive tera and even then, in most cases you will probably need to sacrifice one or two Pokemon + tera advantage to deal with it.

Of course, Mimikyu is not the only offensive threat that feels banworthy (s/o pawmot and revavroom) but it's the one I feel the strongest about atm. I think these two are the most unhealthy presences in the current meta and if they were to be banned the tier would make a step towards a more balanced metagame.
I agree with the contention that Wo-Chein is over centralizing but I disagree with the assertion that Mimikyu over-centralizes hyper offense. With support as in spikes and priority super effective moves like Sucker Punch from Bisharp or Shadow Sneak from Brambleghast do effectively check Mimikyu. I believe more thought should be put into thinking about Krookodile.
 
I'm curious if anyone has some good noivern EV spreads, because I have spent a lot of time thinking about how to make the most out of noivern's decent bulk and decent offenses.

:sv/noivern:
Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 144 HP / 132 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- something other than draco meteor
- Roost​

This is sort of my best effort at making something that is decently bulky but also still doing damage. The HP EVs let it live a +2 sucker punch from bisharp from max hp and a life orb double shock from pawmot and the speed EVs are the most you can give up without tying inteleon. As far as I can tell the only thing you miss the SpA on is missing a guaranteed 2hko vs decently spdef wo-chien, but the odds of them only having a bit of spdef are low vs full physdef or full spdef, and wo-chien is never a grass type anyways. I like this spread when using taunt or defog (if you are into that) noivern, since when you use draco meteor you just want to be doing as much damage as possible. Does anyone else have a noivern EV spread that hits some important benchmarks for bulk?
 
I agree with the contention that Wo-Chein is over centralizing but I disagree with the assertion that Mimikyu over-centralizes hyper offense. With support as in spikes and priority super effective moves like Sucker Punch from Bisharp or Shadow Sneak from Brambleghast do effectively check Mimikyu. I believe more thought should be put into thinking about Krookodile.
I disagree on the krook part. Even though it got a LOT better thanks to Knock off, it's still quite linear on its playstyle and its checks don't change that much between sets. you're (almost) guaranteed to run Knock off and EQ on every set, with a variation of either Close Combat, Stone Edge and Gunk Shot on offensive sets (all of which are exploitable by bulkier builds) and stealth rocks + taunt on utility sets. You could try Weakness Policy with Power Trip, but it's too weak to priority to really make use of it. Bulk up could be an option, but you're still too exploitable to set up.

Mimikyu, on the other hand, forces quite the specific counterplay, basically guaranteeing a win if it can keep its disguise intact at the end of a game. This is compounded by the fact hyper offense teams are really good at removing its checks, making the playstyle quite oppressive atm. I find it alongside Diancie to be the most unbalanced mons atm in the tier.

I'm curious if anyone has some good noivern EV spreads, because I have spent a lot of time thinking about how to make the most out of noivern's decent bulk and decent offenses.

:sv/noivern:
Noivern @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Frisk
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 144 HP / 132 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- something other than draco meteor
- Roost​

This is sort of my best effort at making something that is decently bulky but also still doing damage. The HP EVs let it live a +2 sucker punch from bisharp from max hp and a life orb double shock from pawmot and the speed EVs are the most you can give up without tying inteleon. As far as I can tell the only thing you miss the SpA on is missing a guaranteed 2hko vs decently spdef wo-chien, but the odds of them only having a bit of spdef are low vs full physdef or full spdef, and wo-chien is never a grass type anyways. I like this spread when using taunt or defog (if you are into that) noivern, since when you use draco meteor you just want to be doing as much damage as possible. Does anyone else have a noivern EV spread that hits some important benchmarks for bulk?
I feel like there are enough Noiverns around to make timid max speed a necessity, otherwise you're either letting it defog for free or you're KO'd by draco every time. I do have a really (bad) interesting suggestion:

:Noivern:
Noivern (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn
- Super Fang

With this, you maximize its bulk while also guaranteeing some damage. It's specially useful against Diancie, who you otherwise can't touch :wo: (honestly, you could just take special attacks EV's up until the point you don't stop 2HKOing Bisharp and put those on HP)
 
I agree with the contention that Wo-Chein is over centralizing but I disagree with the assertion that Mimikyu over-centralizes hyper offense. With support as in spikes and priority super effective moves like Sucker Punch from Bisharp or Shadow Sneak from Brambleghast do effectively check Mimikyu. I believe more thought should be put into thinking about Krookodile.
Except that priority strategy still involves sacrificing something to mimikyu to break disguise and let your priority ko, and if mimikyu has shadow sneak then your brambleghast is going to get outsped and ohkoed unless you also commit a tera on something that really doesn't want to tera. Anything that requires at least a 1 for 1 trade to reliably beat is not really a reliable counter strategy.

I feel like there are enough Noiverns around to make timid max speed a necessity, otherwise you're either letting it defog for free or you're KO'd by draco every time.
Personally I have been scarred enough times by risking a speed tie when tilted that I just try to avoid speed ties whenever possible, so I just see the 20 speed EVs as just free points to put in hp when minmaxing, I don't think you lose out on too much when just taking those 20 points out of SpA though. Super fang is definitely underexplored on noivern, it feels like u-turn only exists to have something to click vs a diancie switch in, so on teams that don't find it too hard to switch into diancie why not just click super fang and get some good chip? I might even consider running it over flamethrower on certain sets like draco meteor/second attack/some utility move that isn't taunt/roost.
 
Mimikyu is the strongest hyper offensive pokemon currently in the tier (I was wrong it's probably ban worthy). But in the healthy spirit of showing it off as I've been playing it in Ladder. I present to you all, Bug Mimikyu.

:Mimikyu:
Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Leech Life
- Swords Dance

The main purpose to this mon is to deal with the overwhelming presence that Wo-chein creates. Wo-chein like most of the mons in this tier has a 4x weakness to a type, bug, there are many ways to deal with this, U-turns, Slither Wings, X-Scissor on Gallade or Bisharp. However all of those bait a long stall, Leech Life however is an unexpected choice to many, making it easy to take kills with your Mimikyu. In addition Leech Life is 5 points higher in power than another popular draining option in Drain Punch.
 
Giving my quick thoughts on the metagame right now after playing another account into the Top 500 :mimikyu: is incredible tough to deal with right now with no solid switch-ins to break disguise. :Mudsdale: technically works but you have to gamble a bit as Mimikyu can setup with Swords Dance and then you have to sack 1 or 2 mons all because of disguise, Ghost typing means it’s immune to ES and Mach Punch. I really haven’t found it enjoyable or fair to face…
 
Mimikyu is the talk of the town atm, and for good reason; Disguise. It's pretty much the one reason why it's so oppressive. It can always take one hit and is able to set up an SD. What this means is that at any point in the game it can come in to set up and sweep, which makes it hell to play against, often causing you to lose 1- 2 healthy mons, and sometimes the game. I honestly think it should be suspected since its both so controversial and so hard to fight against, cause it's just not fun dealing with a full health mimikyu at any stage of the game.

And don't you dare bring up mold breaker basculegion, that thing sucks ass against anything that isn't mimikyu
 
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Mimikyu :Mimikyu: needs a suspect. But I disagree with the reason why posed by Elec and Angel. Mimikyu is toxic, being able to clean up games at the very end due to it's free hit, but if at the end you've got a pokemon such as Revavroom :Revavroom: or Mudsdale :Mudsdale: Mimikyu will be unable to take them out. I believe Mimikyu should be suspected but not until after tier adjustment, for hope we get some better counters from UU.
 
It might not matter in a few days depending on how the meta changes, but I wanted to talk about a defensive core I have come to love in this current meta.


:sv/umbreon:
:sv/dragalge:
:sv/bronzong:
Umbreon @ Heavy-Duty Boots​
Dragalge @ Heavy-Duty Boots​
Bronzong @ Leftovers​
Ability: Inner Focus​
Ability: Adaptability​
Ability: Levitate​
Tera Type: Poison​
Tera Type: Water​
Tera Type: Water​
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD​
EVs: 220 HP / 232 SpA / 56 Spe​
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD​
Bold Nature​
Modest Nature​
Sassy Nature​
-Foul Play - Sludge Bomb- Stealth Rock
- Wish - Draco Meteor- Gyro Ball / Heavy Slam
- Protect- Toxic Spikes - Night Shade / Earthquake
- Toxic- Flip Turn- Protect / Grass Knot

Together, these 3 can make up a solid defensive backbone on a balance/very bulky offense team. In this trio you have a strong spdef wall that can still take physical hits in bronzong, a strong physdef wall that can still take special hits in umbreon and a bulky offensive threat in dragalge which gives you crucial resists and bulk while still being strong offensively. Bronzong and dragalge give you hazards, dragalge gives you a slow pivot and umbreon provides wish support for the other two. With umbreon's wishes you can give dragalge and bronzong longevity they don't normally have, letting you keep switching in on the slither wing that tries to abuse umbreon and wearing it down with poison and hazard damage. Umbreon and dragalge can also be used to support the more offensive side of your team, with dragalge you can flip turn on the switch to bring in a fighting type vs their steel switch-in, and umbreon can use wish to gardevoir or pawmot take a hit and heal it off. The defensive synergy is also greatly helped by their typing. All of their weaknesses are covered by another part of the core, guaranteeing that you will have a bulky switch-in to any super effective attack. If you want a more offensive version of the core with the same defensive coverage, you can run rotom-heat over bronzong and another steel type like copperajah or revavroom alongside it.
father son holy spirit.png

What beats this core?
  • :wo-chien: Wo-chien: onces wo-chien is terastallized, dragalge doesn't threaten it with much damage, bronzong has no hope of winning that 1v1 and umbreon will just use toxic and wait for it to rest. You need to use something like taunt noivern or h-decidueye in the offensive part of the team to beat wo-chien.
  • :krookodile: Krookodile: Umbreon is a solid wall to krook, but once you are knocked, weakened and starting to take multiple layers of hazard damage on switching in, you are kind of hopeless. So either have a solid krook answer that does not exist in the rest of your team or focus on poisoning it early and making it die before it ruins you.
  • :mimikyu: Mimikyu: Your physical wall being weak to fairy and fighting means that mimikyu can do a lot of damage. This is why Umbreon is tera poison, so be sure to save your tera unless you know you can beat mimikyu through offensive pressure.
Some teams:
:umbreon: :dragalge: :bronzong: :rotom-heat: :slither-wing: :krookodile: https://pokepast.es/d3032b81f038c9e6
:umbreon: :dragalge: :rotom-heat: :mudsdale: :revavroom: :noivern: https://pokepast.es/3f22732ad4fc3e09
:umbreon: :dragalge: :bronzong: :brambleghast: :arcanine: :pawmot: https://pokepast.es/25149938b3f62ebc
:umbreon: :dragalge: :bronzong: :typhlosion-hisui: :slither-wing: :kilowattrel: https://pokepast.es/30ec6f2a36f03bb6
 
and also (since this tier need something to discuss) I'll just in general welcome more pokemon cause, if I can be quite frank, this tier needs more support mons. The more pokemon that get in this tier that aren't absolutely busted sweepers the better, cause that means more niches are going to be filled, and we might finally beat the no-role compression allegations. Getting tinkaton though would be interesting. It means more paralysis being spread, more SR being set, and more importantly, it means that mimikyu is getting mashed to next friday.

...it also means that, judging from the potential list of drops (which isn't the most reliable but it gives a general idea) that krook is looking to be as good as ever.
 
View attachment 566290
Here is my prediuction, based off my limited time in uu. Cyclizar, talonflame, chesnaught, donphan and amuk are what I'm most looking forward to.
1698675754771.png

I feel like we've seen different parts of the ladder. While I agree with most of what's shown (in green), I feel like I've seen an uptick of some of those mons (in red), so I don't see them dropping anytime soon. Shiftry and Torterra I can see staying one more month in UU depending on how much they were spammed at the beginning of october.

...it also means that, judging from the potential list of drops (which isn't the most reliable but it gives a general idea) that krook is looking to be as good as ever.
How can you say that when we're (probably) getting THE best krook counter in the game? (I do agree with the feeling that krook will keep being amazing tho)

:dipplin:
Dipplin @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Dragon Tail

With Sticky Hold, you're a guaranteed counter to almost all krook sets, with the only exception being choice band Gunk Shot, which is not really that common. Not only that, but you sit on all the current viable ground types on the tier and most grass types, only fearing Decidueye-H's Triple Arrows due to the defense drops + flinch chances.

Honestly, I'm quite excited for the potential drops :]
 
How can you say that when we're (probably) getting THE best krook counter in the game? (I do agree with the feeling that krook will keep being amazing tho)
While this honestly seems true, they did say the same about wo-chien. It is more bulky though (with recover), but like most things that do well against krook, it'll have to fear the krook's teammates, particularly gardevoir(252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Eviolite Dipplin: 218-260 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and other pokemon using trick.
(I do legit think that it's not gonna be all that it's hyped to be, it dies to most special attackers)

Otherwise, I too am quite excited for potential drops!
 
While this honestly seems true, they did say the same about wo-chien. It is more bulky though (with recover), but like most things that do well against krook, it'll have to fear the krook's teammates, particularly gardevoir(252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Eviolite Dipplin: 218-260 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and other pokemon using trick.
(I do legit think that it's not gonna be all that it's hyped to be, it dies to most special attackers)

Otherwise, I too am quite excited for potential drops!
Just a small correction, but according to Bulbapedia Sticky Hold also blocks Trick/Switcheroo. Also, the teammate argument goes both ways as well, though I agree it is quite vulnerable to special attackers, even with eviolite XD.
One thing that Dipplin will probably cause is more usage of Moonblast on defensive Diancie, which means less likelyhood of Encore or the usage of rock on other pokemon, which is nice :]
 
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